I’m ELEPHANT you went through that...can’t imagine how terrifying it must have been. This is extremely interesting. I will consider passing it along to my sister. I only say “consider” because since I’m not a parent (though I spent over ten years taking care of other peoples’ kids), sometimes she uses that as a way of dismissing anything I say regarding the topic.
She is pregnant with her second child, both through IVF. I know you went through that with your current pregnancy (though am not sure about your son) so am curious whether anything you read mentioned a possible link. I assume that isn’t the case based on what you posted but would be interested to know.
Haha I actually love “elephant” there!! I was trying to parse it and it’s actually such a creative use of the word 😂😂
I did conceive both kids through IVF. I think that likely my son’s early digestive issues mostly had to do with his time in the NICU, his early tube feeding and the antibiotics (just a best guess though, who really knows).
Ugh, that was supposed to say “sorry” not ELEPHANT. In an attempt to stop over-apologizing, I set my phone to autocorrect any time I type the word sorry hoping to catch myself. Of course, 99% of the time I don’t catch it, I’m NOT over-apologizing.
Super fascinating. I really don't think we pay enough attention to gut health. I worry for my kids whose guts are not so great. Not bad, but not normal either. And with a mom with autoimmune disease I want them set up for less likelihood of developing their own. Trying to walk the balanced line, as you say, because the devil on my shoulder loves to tell me all the ways I'm failing as a mother.
It’s such a hard balance - I know my kids are at risk, and I know there are ways to strengthen gut health, but the science is early and inconclusive. What’s a mama to do? I am trying to strike a balance between doing some basic foundational healthy-gut things that seem to be evidence-based, and otherwise trying not to worry about it or obsess over it. It’s a hard balance. It helps me to remember that all of our guts are part of an ecology that connects with the world around us, so we really only have control over a bit of it. I may not be thrilled with the direction of the ecology around me, but that doesn’t mean I can overhaul the whole thing, I kind of just have to accept it.
I don’t think any Mums need the job ‘ensure optimal gut microbiome despite a lack of solid evidence and the confounding effects of the entire world environment. Glad you are walking that line. ❤️🩹
Absolutely fascinating. I would personally consider/consult with my doctor on giving this to any future babies I have (the potential benefit would make me look into it, despite the flagged risk). Did you come across any follow up studies about this probiotic and adults with certain gut or microbiome issues? Esp curious given the degradation of gut microbiome over the generations!
I find it compelling that all the recent drugs for PCOS and diabetes (semaglutide and tirzapeptides) actually work on the hormones in the gut (nobody wants to talk about that bc they just want to talk about how ~these fatties are suddenly losing weight “unfairly”~ 🫠 let me tell y’a.... I was on metformin for 15 years, I only got slowly sicker, and nobody on social media knew what metformin was). My curiosity since these drugs came out,.. will we find in 20 years that mothers who had insulin resistance type illnesses and took those GLP-1 meds, have children who are less likely to develop the same (often hereditary) conditions bc their mothers gut hormones were being assisted at the time of or pre conception?
It feels like the answer to so much of chronic/auto-immune illness is right under our noses (or inside our microbiomes), bc these illnesses were spurred on/ created by our modern environment. And yet.... we haven’t made the final connection. Maybe because it is so closely linked to a delicate balance of gut flora, we are so close and yet so far.
I wonder what they think caused the babies in the industrialized world to have less of that strain? Is it maternal diet or antibiotic use or environment or all of the above or something else entirely?
Also, I'd never heard of Evivo before but when I googled it all the news stories are about an FDA recall and a baby getting sepsis. What do you make of their position that no probiotic is approved for infants?
Genuinely curious to hear your take! I always appreciate reading your thoughts and research. I hope neither of these questions come off as anything other than curious!
1. Basically the answer is all of the above. My understanding is that since babies are seeded at birth, the lack of b. infantis is primarily linked to degradation of the maternal microbiome, which is a result of all kinds of factors (diet, antibiotics, stress, sedentary lifestyle, less time outdoors, and so on). It seems like there is a consensus that this degradation occurs slowly over generations, with each new generation starting off in worse shape (on average), and then further degrading, and then passing that down.
2. Yes, this is sticky and I wondered whether to cover it in this article - it happened literally as I was writing this. Worth a long comment at least. In short, it’s super scary. It also happened in a specific context: a preterm baby given probiotics in the hospital. If I have a preterm baby in the hospital, this event would probably result in me choosing not to use the product.
If I have a full term baby, I would still consider using the product that has not been recalled (the powder, which is what we used last time), or another brand on b. infantis supplement, probably after consulting with one or two pediatricians. I think it’s a very personal decision to give your baby something that’s not fda approved. My own outlook is this: it takes a really really long time for new science to make its way to the FDA and into the general population, so in my own health journey I have had to look outside the mainstream for answers, to great effect. I would never want to put a baby at risk, and therefore would be more cautious with baby than with myself in this arena. That said, the recall was in a specific context--a preterm baby given the supplement as part of a hospital protocol, and even the resulting FDA warnings focus on preterm babies, who are at higher risk of everything.
All that aside I can barely read about the recall because I can’t imagine the devastation of that family. It’s truly such a tragedy.
Anyways, interested to hear your reactions and thoughts here - I’m very much figuring out how to balance my own learnings with the official line in healthcare. It’s a tricky one.
Thank you for the thoughtful answer! Really interesting about all the factors that come into play in the microbiome on this. Every time I learn anything new about the way that whole area of healthcare, it feels like we're just at the very beginning of understanding something fundamental to how our bodies work.
As for the second part, I agree that it's almost too tragic to even think about. I don't know that I have any fully formed thoughts, but I appreciate hearing yours. I guess my only thing is that it's so scary and hard in healthcare in general (and with babies in particular) to balance the terror of an extremely unlikely and rare thing happening with the more likely not-bad outcomes. I always wish there was a third option that is totally risk free and definitively the best and correct choice, but that's often not on the table.
My wife has been diagnosed with a form of neuropathy called MADSAM. Two neurologists and a rheumatologist concur. She is soon going to start a regimen of IVIG. You write a lot about health so I wondered if you had come across MADSAM before or if you knew of any resources that would help her and me get a better layperson's understanding of the IVIG process.
We trust our doctors, but it's always useful to gain a better understanding by talking to other people who have gone through this.
If you have any suggestions, please email me at robertsdavidn@gmail.com. If not, no worries.
This is absolutely fascinating! Saving to read closer again and then probably again after that. Gosh darn, Rae. I love your work!
<3 <3 <3
I’m ELEPHANT you went through that...can’t imagine how terrifying it must have been. This is extremely interesting. I will consider passing it along to my sister. I only say “consider” because since I’m not a parent (though I spent over ten years taking care of other peoples’ kids), sometimes she uses that as a way of dismissing anything I say regarding the topic.
She is pregnant with her second child, both through IVF. I know you went through that with your current pregnancy (though am not sure about your son) so am curious whether anything you read mentioned a possible link. I assume that isn’t the case based on what you posted but would be interested to know.
Haha I actually love “elephant” there!! I was trying to parse it and it’s actually such a creative use of the word 😂😂
I did conceive both kids through IVF. I think that likely my son’s early digestive issues mostly had to do with his time in the NICU, his early tube feeding and the antibiotics (just a best guess though, who really knows).
I think so. On the occasion I don’t see it, typically someone gets a good laugh.so it’s a win-win. 😂
Ugh, that was supposed to say “sorry” not ELEPHANT. In an attempt to stop over-apologizing, I set my phone to autocorrect any time I type the word sorry hoping to catch myself. Of course, 99% of the time I don’t catch it, I’m NOT over-apologizing.
Super fascinating. I really don't think we pay enough attention to gut health. I worry for my kids whose guts are not so great. Not bad, but not normal either. And with a mom with autoimmune disease I want them set up for less likelihood of developing their own. Trying to walk the balanced line, as you say, because the devil on my shoulder loves to tell me all the ways I'm failing as a mother.
It’s such a hard balance - I know my kids are at risk, and I know there are ways to strengthen gut health, but the science is early and inconclusive. What’s a mama to do? I am trying to strike a balance between doing some basic foundational healthy-gut things that seem to be evidence-based, and otherwise trying not to worry about it or obsess over it. It’s a hard balance. It helps me to remember that all of our guts are part of an ecology that connects with the world around us, so we really only have control over a bit of it. I may not be thrilled with the direction of the ecology around me, but that doesn’t mean I can overhaul the whole thing, I kind of just have to accept it.
That’s a good way to look at it.
I don’t think any Mums need the job ‘ensure optimal gut microbiome despite a lack of solid evidence and the confounding effects of the entire world environment. Glad you are walking that line. ❤️🩹
Absolutely fascinating. I would personally consider/consult with my doctor on giving this to any future babies I have (the potential benefit would make me look into it, despite the flagged risk). Did you come across any follow up studies about this probiotic and adults with certain gut or microbiome issues? Esp curious given the degradation of gut microbiome over the generations!
I find it compelling that all the recent drugs for PCOS and diabetes (semaglutide and tirzapeptides) actually work on the hormones in the gut (nobody wants to talk about that bc they just want to talk about how ~these fatties are suddenly losing weight “unfairly”~ 🫠 let me tell y’a.... I was on metformin for 15 years, I only got slowly sicker, and nobody on social media knew what metformin was). My curiosity since these drugs came out,.. will we find in 20 years that mothers who had insulin resistance type illnesses and took those GLP-1 meds, have children who are less likely to develop the same (often hereditary) conditions bc their mothers gut hormones were being assisted at the time of or pre conception?
It feels like the answer to so much of chronic/auto-immune illness is right under our noses (or inside our microbiomes), bc these illnesses were spurred on/ created by our modern environment. And yet.... we haven’t made the final connection. Maybe because it is so closely linked to a delicate balance of gut flora, we are so close and yet so far.
I wonder what they think caused the babies in the industrialized world to have less of that strain? Is it maternal diet or antibiotic use or environment or all of the above or something else entirely?
Also, I'd never heard of Evivo before but when I googled it all the news stories are about an FDA recall and a baby getting sepsis. What do you make of their position that no probiotic is approved for infants?
Genuinely curious to hear your take! I always appreciate reading your thoughts and research. I hope neither of these questions come off as anything other than curious!
Great questions!
1. Basically the answer is all of the above. My understanding is that since babies are seeded at birth, the lack of b. infantis is primarily linked to degradation of the maternal microbiome, which is a result of all kinds of factors (diet, antibiotics, stress, sedentary lifestyle, less time outdoors, and so on). It seems like there is a consensus that this degradation occurs slowly over generations, with each new generation starting off in worse shape (on average), and then further degrading, and then passing that down.
2. Yes, this is sticky and I wondered whether to cover it in this article - it happened literally as I was writing this. Worth a long comment at least. In short, it’s super scary. It also happened in a specific context: a preterm baby given probiotics in the hospital. If I have a preterm baby in the hospital, this event would probably result in me choosing not to use the product.
If I have a full term baby, I would still consider using the product that has not been recalled (the powder, which is what we used last time), or another brand on b. infantis supplement, probably after consulting with one or two pediatricians. I think it’s a very personal decision to give your baby something that’s not fda approved. My own outlook is this: it takes a really really long time for new science to make its way to the FDA and into the general population, so in my own health journey I have had to look outside the mainstream for answers, to great effect. I would never want to put a baby at risk, and therefore would be more cautious with baby than with myself in this arena. That said, the recall was in a specific context--a preterm baby given the supplement as part of a hospital protocol, and even the resulting FDA warnings focus on preterm babies, who are at higher risk of everything.
All that aside I can barely read about the recall because I can’t imagine the devastation of that family. It’s truly such a tragedy.
Anyways, interested to hear your reactions and thoughts here - I’m very much figuring out how to balance my own learnings with the official line in healthcare. It’s a tricky one.
Thank you for the thoughtful answer! Really interesting about all the factors that come into play in the microbiome on this. Every time I learn anything new about the way that whole area of healthcare, it feels like we're just at the very beginning of understanding something fundamental to how our bodies work.
As for the second part, I agree that it's almost too tragic to even think about. I don't know that I have any fully formed thoughts, but I appreciate hearing yours. I guess my only thing is that it's so scary and hard in healthcare in general (and with babies in particular) to balance the terror of an extremely unlikely and rare thing happening with the more likely not-bad outcomes. I always wish there was a third option that is totally risk free and definitively the best and correct choice, but that's often not on the table.
lol yes, I'll take the totally risk free and definitely best choice in every case, please!
Thank you, and Im so happy everything improved.
I wonder what our elders did in these cases? I mean they got us all here right?
Hi Rae,
My wife has been diagnosed with a form of neuropathy called MADSAM. Two neurologists and a rheumatologist concur. She is soon going to start a regimen of IVIG. You write a lot about health so I wondered if you had come across MADSAM before or if you knew of any resources that would help her and me get a better layperson's understanding of the IVIG process.
We trust our doctors, but it's always useful to gain a better understanding by talking to other people who have gone through this.
If you have any suggestions, please email me at robertsdavidn@gmail.com. If not, no worries.
Best,
David Roberts