"It's really hard in our culture to feel okay about an appealing life we aren’t having, and not to think “if I had just tried harder, I could have had it.” "
I did try harder and I had that life. It still didn't make me feel okay. (If that's any consolation).
Thank you both for this conversation. As always in these Lady’s Illness Library posts, I find common ground with the lady sufferer.
I don’t knit and I’m not otherwise a creative type (except for writing), but I long for a hobby akin to knitting where it’s tactile and distracting and yet mind-softening in all the right ways. I’m addicted to information and that doesn’t allow for a lot of inner expansiveness other than I guess intellectually.
Hi Amy! Thanks for reading. I'm a knitter but it is a bit of a learning curve. According to Kathryn crochet is a little easier to pick up--I'm tempted to try it myself after talking to her. I have a friend who just learned super quickly and has already made two hats! So...if it appeals...there's always the option to buy your first crochet hook :)
I learned how to both knit and crochet while in eating disorder treatment and agree that crochet is much easier (and faster, which you may find more appealing Rae 😂). I haven’t done it in forever but now I really want to, unfortunately 99% of what I own is in storage at the moment.
Could you get one hook and yarn out of storage or invest in a new hook and yarn?
Really glad every time I hear about these craft activities used alongside other treatment options. <3 <3 <3 If that's a story you ever want to share (zero pressure) I'd be happy to do an email interview or host a guest post from you.
If only it were that easy. 😂 The situation was not my doing so not only would I have no idea where to start looking, but I’m not sure what actually made it to storage (I do know a lot did NOT). Then a couple weeks later it was broken into and because of that I wasn’t able to say what was missing except for the one box that wasn’t supposed to be put in there and those things weren’t covered under the insurance. Sorry - that’s way more than you asked (and sadly a short version). I can’t afford to spend money on anything that isn’t a necessity right now but managed to get some supplies out and have accumulated more since. I’m easily distracted and I get bored doing the same thing for long periods of time so tend to dabble in different types of arts/crafts.
I don’t know if I’d be too helpful with knitting/crocheting in specific, but would be happy to talk to you about how much art has played a role in my healing journey and life in general (ranging from art therapy to being basically all I had when I was homeless and living in my car for 2.5 years).
I taught myself to knit from a book--60 years ago! I am sure there’s plenty on the internet about how to/beginner’ projects, etc. If find a project you like, they will tell you how much yarn and which tools you need to get.
Some people find watching the how to videos soothing. Others find video too stimulating when things aren’t going well. I have taught people to knit - cast on, knit, bind off - in an hour so the investment needn’t be huge.
I learned to crochet about 2 years ago from YouTube. I love being able to see it visually and to also being able to pause and to re watch the video as many times as it takes for my brain and hands to pick up the movements.
Once you learn a few basics stitches there’s so much you can do and it’s so soothing and satisfying ♥️
You just need a crochet hook and some yarn. I learn best from books so I actually got a children's crochet book to learn. But there are a million online video tutorials. I've worked a lot with Marly Bird who has some good beginner ones on YouTube but she's one of many. There are also local in person classes at many yarn and craft stores.
All that said, it certainly doesn't have to be crochet. Was there anything you did hands on in childhood that you loved? I made friendship bracelets. I also did mail art. And I find that I enjoy doing both of those as an adult too. :)
Yes! And there's something about returning to those things we did as kids that activates a delight in us. Macrame is potentially the grown up version of that craft.
I knit and on days I don’t have time or energy I knit in my head! Seriously, it helps to imagine the rhythm of the needles, the feel of wool through my fingers. Also I’m living proof there is life the other side of menopause and it’s good.
Yay! Life on the other side of menopause! Also, knitting in your head! When I used to knit more I would definitely compose color patterns for hats in my head :)
I have created a whole book of creativity exercises for crocheters, including a chapter on mindful crochet, and one of the exercises in it is mental crocheting just like you describe for knitting. It's totally just as soothing!!
I’m living proof there is life on the other side of menopause - I was very relieved to get here. I found the last few years of menstruation tough. Jen Gunter of The Vajenda Substack writes some excellent deep dives into hormones and when to be anxious and when we’ve been lied to about health risks. As a migraineur I found her recent article about HRT kind of infuriating because so many people were: “should you be doing that?” But it was definitely helpful in the first couple of years post menopause. Transvaginal, not oral. YMMV.
Thanks. I've been able to find a decent amount of information on HRT for when it reaches that stage but I've found very little to nothing written about the long-term effects of being on the birth control pill in the years leading up to and during perimenopause. It's like no one seems to know even though millions must deal with it.
It is definitely a transferable skill. I learned to do this when I used to throw pots and my teacher told me to spend time between classes mentally visualising the process. It is a great comfort when there’s no way to knit. I’m going to have to read your book! I crochet too though knitting is my first love.
Rae & Kathryn thank you so much for sharing this wonderful conversation- I read it feeling like, OH MY GOD IM NOT ALONE?! The disorientation of ups and downs, the revelation about a disgruntled gut and my hormones shifting, being 42 and kicking around between years of birth control and the sudden understanding that I am very likely perimenopausal instead of just batshit crazy (several women in my family hit menopause by 45 but never talked about it)-- THANK YOU for talking about it. ✨ Daily sketchbooking is the way I anchor myself to the planet and allow myself to be messy and unfinished but keep a commitment to myself that nourishes when everything else feels like a drain. ✨
Thank you for being here! I'm honestly learning so much about perimenopause from this thread. I'm thirty-five and basically have NEVER HEARD ANYONE TALK ABOUT IT BEFORE.
I’m 58 and until a few years ago, neither had I! And I was through both of them. I look back and wonder now. Maybe some things I thought were crazy was jus peri or menopause. I’m glad it’s finally being talked about more. Check out The Empress on here too. Alisa is full into the subject and writing a book due out next fall.
You got this Lisette. You are most definitely not alone. And I wish I had one creative drawing bone in my body so I could sketch and draw out my messy feelings and emotions. I love the work you do.
I am so glad that you give yourself that space to be "messy and unfinished."
And I'm grateful to Rae for giving us this space to talk about these things. I'm sorry that you're also going through it but also glad not to be alone in it. I've tried multiple times to talk to my mother about the menopause topic and she still can't talk about it for reasons I don't quite understand except that "we don't talk about those things."
Loved reading this. I’ve subscribed to your page and Instagram. Love the curiosity about the next page, I feel that’s super healing 💜 also about the celebrating the non conventional wins. It’s been a big practice of mine and there have been times where I was left wondering why I was still alive and found this super difficult - yet the wins were always there when I dug deep enough.
Another great craft that is portable, useful, and beautiful. I am also a quilter, which I love but it a little more clunky and involved due to the machine. I've always thought embroidery would be really fun to try :)
You could always try ‘slow stitching’ there are a number of ways you can use a running stitch to ‘embroider’. I bought a plain linen scarf, chose 4 shades of embroidery thread and got a dice. I assigned each thread a number 1-4. A 5 was repeat the last colour, and 6 was roll again. It was an exercise in trusting randomness but I found it easy, soothing and amusing. I did about 50 rows of stitching at each end. It works best if you choose 3 colours that ‘go together’ and one that clashes a bit, and have some dark and some lighter.
I actually started hand sewing when I first got into quilting. I was flying for work a lot, so I started doing hand piecing on the go. Jinny Beyer has several books on it.
As I had kids I switched to hand sewing clothes for them while I commuted to work.
Nowadays, as I worry more about environmental issues, I do more mending and darning.
There's a bit of freehand embroidery in there, especially over stains 🙃
It's always intriguing to me which ones we each do and do not end up learning. I crochet and I learned how to knit but honestly I learned for a job or I probably wouldn't have bothered. I know how to hand sew which I like better than machine sewing but mostly it stresses me out more than it soothes me. And for others it's the opposite. Whatever we do to craft and create and heal and mend ... materials and ourselves ... is good. <3 <3
That's a good thing to remember! It might sound weird but actually a major turnoff for me is that you have to cut a certain length of thread ... even if you cut it long. With crochet, you can just keep working until the yarn runs out.
Creating a new length of thread is a ritual for me. I've gotten some nice smelling wax so I pull an arm length, cut, pull the armlength through the wax, thread, knot.
Oh that sounds lovely. I think it really enhances the crafting experiences when we notice the routine parts of it and add something, like nice smelling wax, that makes it more of a ritual of sorts.
Thank you Kathryn for sharing your story and Rae for bringing this piece of it to us. I related to so much of this. For me, knitting is all you find in crochet. When my pain was severe I also used it to “knit a net to hold the pain” and because what I called ordering tasks seemed to soothe me a tiny bit, maybe they did something to my brainwaves through patterns of movement? Knitting, sorting things - I once dumped out a small jar of mixed nuts ams sorted them when I was feeling desperate. It even helped, a bit. And for a while after I put together my own, superior nut mix rather than buy the deceiving ones from the supermarket.
I love this concept of ordering tasks! That's definitely part of the fulfillment of knitting/crocheting--ordering a messy ball of yarn into something useful and beautiful.
What a terrific phrase - knitting a net to hold the pain. I love that.
Knitting and crochet have most of the same benefits. I learned crochet as a kid so I had that muscle memory that made it easier to pick up again as an adult. I can knit but it's a much harder task for me so I don't find it quite as soothing.
The ordering thing makes sense. It's probably something neurochemical and also something metaphorical about how we need to bring order to the chaos of our worlds. I know that I often go into a decluttering and organizing phase with my physical world when my emotional world is a mess.
I learned knitting as a kid, and i cam crochet about well enough to join knitting together. I find a lot of people get on with one or the other more. People and brains are fascinating.
In answer to question 1) I don’t knit! But I love Muay Thai, going to the gym and writing on here to keep me going.
2) what keeps me curious about the next part of life on my worst days? trying to think of ONE thing I’m grateful for, or looking forward to. Even if it’s literally a coffee, or a walk in the sunshine. Or the smell of freshly cut grass and the evening setting in. I always try to think, ‘tomorrow will be better’ and 9 times out of 10 I feel a new man the next morning. I have to get through the storm first before I can properly be curious about what’s next, but once I deploy these coping mechanisms, a walk in nature can create the space I need to be excited about the writing, gymming, exploring, and learning journeys ahead.
What you've described is something we tend to do naturally - find the things that work to bring us out of that stormy space - but which is officially in therapy called resourcing. When I learned this in school, I brainstormed everything that ever makes me feel good, and it really has helped me to have that list to turn to. I learned through that list that petting dogs is a big resource for me - I didn't have any at the time and would go to the dog park and pet strangers dogs :)
There’s an Aussie pain expert called Lorimer Mosely who calls them SIMs - Safety In Me signals, where stressors are DIMs - Danger in me signals. I’ve also seem them called Lifters. Padding hard tasks with SIMs, resourcing, joy snacks, circuit breakers is helpful to me, and to any human.
I feel really fortunate that when my boyf asked a neighbour who was a neurologist about my newfound migraine disability in 2018 he said “whatever contraceptive she’s on, get her to come off it. Even if it’s the mini pill.” I’ve never taken it since and will never take contraception again. I’m 43 and a big part of my journey has been to rebalance my hormones. It’s taken years. But I was ok with that, because to me it was as a simple as staying chronically ill for years or spending years pursuing a path to wellness. I recently found out the chances were I would’ve been perimenopausal with all my symptoms back at the age of 38. Symptoms outside of severe & agonising pain were the least of my problems at the point of finding myself being unable to work with no mortgage insurance, no sick pay and no immediate family to help. My periods and my hormonal health are the best they’ve ever been....celebrating 18 months free from severe & agonising pain. 4 months free from a high level of pain (comparable with child birth, kidney stones & gunshot wound. I’m well 90-95% of the time. I believe this is possible for all of us and can’t wait to be interviewed for this series. Application submitted. 🙏
Thank you for sharing Amber! Your story is both difficult to read and inspiring at the same time. So much intensity.
A million apologies for not getting back to you yet - I have been overwhelmed by the responses, so much so that I have taken down the interest link (for now!). I am slowly but surely working through the list (which will inevitably be further delayed by my upcoming maternity leave!) Thanks so much for your interest and continued support!
Thank you🥲 there’s never any rush with the applications, we have time and they will unravel and unfold in their own way. I sent your pregnancy announcement blog on to my friend (with her permission) as she’s currently going through ivf and the grief that she feels will stay with her forever. She found it deeply insightful and beneficial to read x
Thank you for sharing that. I had a really terrible experience recently with a doctor recently who flat out told me that at 43 this is not perimenopause because I'm "too young" which is scientifically untrue but also just so dismissive. I appreciate hearing about your journey and how there might be value in just going off the pill completely. I'm not sure that's what I want to do as I don't love my other contraceptive choices but I also don't want to keep feeling unwell so that's something to seriously consider. I wish more people were talking about this and I really appreciate Rae opening up the space to have these conversations.
What's been complicated is that I stopped bleeding almost entirely in my early thirties due to the effects of the pill but a few years ago I did a bunch of hormone testing that said I can still get pregnant so I'm not actually in menopause ... but now I'm seeing all of these signs that I could be in perimenopause but that obvious one of not bleeding isn't relevant so doctors really don't know what to do with me.
That’s such a hard place to be. I’m glad you were able to consult doctors so they could at least rule out sinister things like cancer. Seems like before menopause they worry if you stop bleeding for no apparent reason, and after menopause they worry about even a tiny smear of blood.
It’s a big decision to make re the contraceptive. Give it some space and I’m sure you will come to a decision that feels in alignment for you. I’ve been fascinated about hormones since I started learning about them. And it is true that 43 would’ve been considered too young - not that long ago. I was horrified to discover just this year that perimenopause has reduced from mid to late 40’s to 36! This has happened only in the last dozen or so years. It is concerning on another level when it comes to matters of our health.
There are also people who go into early menopause much younger than that and I found it appalling that my female doctor at a women's center acted like I was crazy to even suggest it. I'm looking for a new doctor. But also, as you've suggested, giving it space and trusting myself and my body to decide is really what's going to be key here.
I think perhaps younger generations are getting more information about this because most of the friends a decade younger than me have chosen only non-hormonal birth control. It's not a conversation I was even having at the time. I went on the pill in my late teens and have more or less been on it ever since.
Same, re the contraception. Ive always had big issues with it but vehemently did not want to get pregnant. For me, tuning into my body (in the end), learning to trust has been key for me. My body always knew but I’d learnt to override it.
It will be a rarity to find a doctor who understands about hormones. It’s a deeply complex topic that they have little to no training on (unless they actively pursue it themselves). But at least if we can find someone who will listen, show a little empathy and have even a remote idea that would help. I went on to educate myself in the end -reading books, listening to podcasts. There’s some fantastic resources out there. And my health has improved far beyond what the medical field currently believe possible. I hope to change these beliefs and limitations with my writing and messaging.
I was surprised because my doctor is at a women’s clinic that also specializes in transgender health care so it seems like a place that should have knowledge about hormones!!! But I’m finding that just talking about it with other women and opening that conversation is how I am learning the most.
It is surprising when you first find out, shockingly so. Not a lot about the medical system surprises me now (though I remain grateful for the services that we do have via the nhs and recognise the strengths and opportunities that come along with it). I was horrified when I found out that doctors only receive 4 hours training in headache and migraine. Neurologists not much more. But it did help me make sense of the massive shortfalls and failings in my own journey and understand how the worlds most complex - and common - neurological disorder is now also the worlds 2nd most disabling. Something I fervently believe could be entirely avoidable. It is a time of opportunity for us all now though because these things we can research and find out about ourselves. Share the information, learn from one another. Glad to read this is what you are finding x
Our culture tells us: go earn money and do things for society in order to be valuable. I don’t believe in that, but I do believe we all need a purpose. Turning a piece of yarn into something is a magical thing.
Lovely piece from you both! Glad to have discovered it after a tough week..: wondering if my toddler will let me knit a few rows... 🧶
I really feel every word of this! While I can’t physically knit (I don’t have enough energy/strength in my hands), I do struggle with finding purpose a lot. I’m mostly bedbound so there isn’t a whole lot I can do, but I found out that it’s possible to write and record songs from bed and my reclinable wheelchair. I’ve nearly finished recording my first album (it has taken nearly eight years from writing to recording) and I’m elated. I do struggle with “but if I could do more I would have more purpose”, it’s a daily conversation I have with myself. Thank you so much, Kathryn, for sharing your story!
Thank you for sharing too! And congrats on being almost finished with your first album!!! That's very exciting. It's really hard to find purpose in ways that are disentangled from what society calls "success" but I hope we all keep encouraging each other to do so. Even your words here matter. <3
I've been off hormonal birth control for 3 years now (I have a copper IUD instead) and it has absolutely changed my life. My cycle is much more varied but I've learned so much about myself in letting myself cycle naturally. I know this isn't an option for everyone but I would recommend if you can.
I love this, I remember being told by my psychiatrist that it was reasonable to expect that with my mental health diagnosis full time employment may never be a realistic option for me. And it's not. I don't think it works for many people. It is hard to care for yourself meaningfully, especially if your putting all your energy into working. Letting go of the narrative of what we are told is normal and meeting ourselves where we are is so important.
I knit. I find it helps me feel 'productive' when everything else feels too hard. I like to knit beanies and then give them away. knowing I'm doing it for someone else helps to, it helps to remind me that I am not alone, and that I am not the only person that needs love and tenderness.
Thanks for writing, Evelyn! Seems like there might be a need for more spaces to talk about hormonal birth control and all of our whack experiences with it.
It's cool that you had a psychiatrist that just told it to you straight like that (though I know that there are points in my life where I wouldn't have been able to hear that message).
Knitting is the best. I also knit. Hats are my favorite because you can easily be creative and they come together quickly :)
Yeah, its wild how much we just don't get told. I was on a pill with an unnecessarily high amount of estrogen for 7 years that increased my risk of cancer for no reason. It took seeing a female GP that specialised in womens health to catch that. It's wild.
Yes crafts are amazing and a great way for my friends and I to connect as we like to do it together too.
I felt so seen in this interview, especially in the commentary about having depression and not being able to work those desired 40 hr work weeks and feeling grief over it.
"I can't go to a job nine to five every day and be an okay person. It took me years to not feel ashamed about that. I thought I was lazy. I thought something was wrong with me. I pushed and pushed and pushed."
I 100% relate to this. I came very close to a breakdown in 2021 because I was trying to push, trying to be “normal”.
I do still find myself pushing because I have so much guilt around not working more in a regular job. I don’t have much money coming in and me and my partner have to live with my Mum. I feel guilty a lot. But I try to focus on writing and creating so maybe one day my dreams of it being my job will come true. And then I’ll be free.
I have totally been there too, just pushing pushing pushing. The guilt and shame is real, and I love how open and honest Kathryn is about it, in this interview and in all her writing!
I had meant to comment much earlier, but Covid sideswiped me last week, and it took a bit for my brain to reconstitute itself. Anyway...
I was on "the pill" for 20 years or so in order to regulate my menstrual cycle, which went haywire in my teens. The big concern was that I wouldn't be able to settle into a regular rhythm on my own and I risked bleeding to death! We suspect this is what happened to one of my great aunts, in fact.
I jumped off the pill in 2007, following my trip to Australia. It was an experiment at the time: if things started going off kilter, I could jump back on the pill. Lo and behold, I stayed in a regular pattern for ten years, until perimenopause kicked in! Hormonal flux at this point is totally expected, though, so I've been riding it out.
My current challenge is dealing with the "triple threat" of perimenopause, chronic anemia, and Long Covid. (Once I took a long look at anemia, the symptoms slotted into place alongside everything else.) I'm very much looking forward to meeting with some functional medicine specialists to see if I can get some workable *holistic* solutions, instead of just trying to cobble together a patchwork of remedies and coping mechanisms.
Whew, thanks for writing, that's a lot. It sounds like you have some clarity about what's going on right now, which is great, but doesn't really indicate a clear path forward. I am also hoping for you that you can find a holistic approach that feels good!
Randomly--I just had an iron infusion due to anemia during pregnancy (which I think is quite common, particularly with children after the first). I didn't know this was a thing, and it has been a godsend because I have been able to stop taking constipating iron supplements. I feel more stable and energetic since the infusion. Not suggesting that this is the right path for you, I just wanted to share my recent experience!
"It's really hard in our culture to feel okay about an appealing life we aren’t having, and not to think “if I had just tried harder, I could have had it.” "
I did try harder and I had that life. It still didn't make me feel okay. (If that's any consolation).
Totally. Same. It made me feel awful.
Thank you both for this conversation. As always in these Lady’s Illness Library posts, I find common ground with the lady sufferer.
I don’t knit and I’m not otherwise a creative type (except for writing), but I long for a hobby akin to knitting where it’s tactile and distracting and yet mind-softening in all the right ways. I’m addicted to information and that doesn’t allow for a lot of inner expansiveness other than I guess intellectually.
Hi Amy! Thanks for reading. I'm a knitter but it is a bit of a learning curve. According to Kathryn crochet is a little easier to pick up--I'm tempted to try it myself after talking to her. I have a friend who just learned super quickly and has already made two hats! So...if it appeals...there's always the option to buy your first crochet hook :)
I learned how to both knit and crochet while in eating disorder treatment and agree that crochet is much easier (and faster, which you may find more appealing Rae 😂). I haven’t done it in forever but now I really want to, unfortunately 99% of what I own is in storage at the moment.
Could you get one hook and yarn out of storage or invest in a new hook and yarn?
Really glad every time I hear about these craft activities used alongside other treatment options. <3 <3 <3 If that's a story you ever want to share (zero pressure) I'd be happy to do an email interview or host a guest post from you.
If only it were that easy. 😂 The situation was not my doing so not only would I have no idea where to start looking, but I’m not sure what actually made it to storage (I do know a lot did NOT). Then a couple weeks later it was broken into and because of that I wasn’t able to say what was missing except for the one box that wasn’t supposed to be put in there and those things weren’t covered under the insurance. Sorry - that’s way more than you asked (and sadly a short version). I can’t afford to spend money on anything that isn’t a necessity right now but managed to get some supplies out and have accumulated more since. I’m easily distracted and I get bored doing the same thing for long periods of time so tend to dabble in different types of arts/crafts.
I don’t know if I’d be too helpful with knitting/crocheting in specific, but would be happy to talk to you about how much art has played a role in my healing journey and life in general (ranging from art therapy to being basically all I had when I was homeless and living in my car for 2.5 years).
Oh no, I'm so sorry that you went through that!!
Yes, it doesn't have to be crochet specific at all. Anything related to creativity/art and mental health/wellness fit for me.
Can you send me an email to Kathryn.vercillo on gmail to get us started?
No need for you to be sorry...it’s our fucked up society that is the problem.
I can do that but will warn you I’m absolutely AWFUL with e-mail.
Is that how one starts? What the heck do I buy?
I taught myself to knit from a book--60 years ago! I am sure there’s plenty on the internet about how to/beginner’ projects, etc. If find a project you like, they will tell you how much yarn and which tools you need to get.
Some people find watching the how to videos soothing. Others find video too stimulating when things aren’t going well. I have taught people to knit - cast on, knit, bind off - in an hour so the investment needn’t be huge.
It looks like from yours and Kathryn’s replies like YouTube might be the place to start. Thanks!
I learned to crochet about 2 years ago from YouTube. I love being able to see it visually and to also being able to pause and to re watch the video as many times as it takes for my brain and hands to pick up the movements.
Once you learn a few basics stitches there’s so much you can do and it’s so soothing and satisfying ♥️
You just need a crochet hook and some yarn. I learn best from books so I actually got a children's crochet book to learn. But there are a million online video tutorials. I've worked a lot with Marly Bird who has some good beginner ones on YouTube but she's one of many. There are also local in person classes at many yarn and craft stores.
All that said, it certainly doesn't have to be crochet. Was there anything you did hands on in childhood that you loved? I made friendship bracelets. I also did mail art. And I find that I enjoy doing both of those as an adult too. :)
Have you tried macrame?
- I found it easish to pick up Amy and made a simple door hanging which was a therapeutic experience in itself!
I realized when I learned macrame that friendship bracelets are macrame!
Ahh of course they are! I used to pin the threads on my embroidery box and make them for friends when I was younger...
Yes! And there's something about returning to those things we did as kids that activates a delight in us. Macrame is potentially the grown up version of that craft.
I’ve been wanting to do that!
Omg, macrame! Back in high school I used to macrame satiny cord into chokers to wear. So pleased with myself at the time!
Love it. Would extra love if you tried it again now!! <3
I knit and on days I don’t have time or energy I knit in my head! Seriously, it helps to imagine the rhythm of the needles, the feel of wool through my fingers. Also I’m living proof there is life the other side of menopause and it’s good.
Yay! Life on the other side of menopause! Also, knitting in your head! When I used to knit more I would definitely compose color patterns for hats in my head :)
Thanks for the menopause encouragement!!
I have created a whole book of creativity exercises for crocheters, including a chapter on mindful crochet, and one of the exercises in it is mental crocheting just like you describe for knitting. It's totally just as soothing!!
I’m living proof there is life on the other side of menopause - I was very relieved to get here. I found the last few years of menstruation tough. Jen Gunter of The Vajenda Substack writes some excellent deep dives into hormones and when to be anxious and when we’ve been lied to about health risks. As a migraineur I found her recent article about HRT kind of infuriating because so many people were: “should you be doing that?” But it was definitely helpful in the first couple of years post menopause. Transvaginal, not oral. YMMV.
Thanks. I've been able to find a decent amount of information on HRT for when it reaches that stage but I've found very little to nothing written about the long-term effects of being on the birth control pill in the years leading up to and during perimenopause. It's like no one seems to know even though millions must deal with it.
Ah yes, that’s different. Dr Jen probably covers what info is out there, and rages very enjoyably on the lack of info.
It is definitely a transferable skill. I learned to do this when I used to throw pots and my teacher told me to spend time between classes mentally visualising the process. It is a great comfort when there’s no way to knit. I’m going to have to read your book! I crochet too though knitting is my first love.
Oh I love that - applying it to any art/craft. I wonder if there’s more written about this ... I’m going to explore!
Knitting in your head wow that's beautiful!!
Rae & Kathryn thank you so much for sharing this wonderful conversation- I read it feeling like, OH MY GOD IM NOT ALONE?! The disorientation of ups and downs, the revelation about a disgruntled gut and my hormones shifting, being 42 and kicking around between years of birth control and the sudden understanding that I am very likely perimenopausal instead of just batshit crazy (several women in my family hit menopause by 45 but never talked about it)-- THANK YOU for talking about it. ✨ Daily sketchbooking is the way I anchor myself to the planet and allow myself to be messy and unfinished but keep a commitment to myself that nourishes when everything else feels like a drain. ✨
Thank you for being here! I'm honestly learning so much about perimenopause from this thread. I'm thirty-five and basically have NEVER HEARD ANYONE TALK ABOUT IT BEFORE.
HOW ARE WE NOT ALL TALKING ABOUT THIS?!?! Thank you for making space and encouraging me to share my own messy, incomplete thoughts about it.
I’m 58 and until a few years ago, neither had I! And I was through both of them. I look back and wonder now. Maybe some things I thought were crazy was jus peri or menopause. I’m glad it’s finally being talked about more. Check out The Empress on here too. Alisa is full into the subject and writing a book due out next fall.
Awesome, definitely checking that out!
You got this Lisette. You are most definitely not alone. And I wish I had one creative drawing bone in my body so I could sketch and draw out my messy feelings and emotions. I love the work you do.
😭✨🫶🏼 thank you Kim! Y’know the great thing about a sketchbook is that it’s the *perfect* place to be a mess. ❤️
I just got out my microscope and saw it - your one creative bone ... It's in there! <3
😂
I am so glad that you give yourself that space to be "messy and unfinished."
And I'm grateful to Rae for giving us this space to talk about these things. I'm sorry that you're also going through it but also glad not to be alone in it. I've tried multiple times to talk to my mother about the menopause topic and she still can't talk about it for reasons I don't quite understand except that "we don't talk about those things."
I absolutely loved getting the opportunity to chat with you. And then to chat again!
Same! And thank you again for the real, physical gift, IRL :)
Clearly that book was just sitting on my shelf waiting to find you :)
Loved reading this. I’ve subscribed to your page and Instagram. Love the curiosity about the next page, I feel that’s super healing 💜 also about the celebrating the non conventional wins. It’s been a big practice of mine and there have been times where I was left wondering why I was still alive and found this super difficult - yet the wins were always there when I dug deep enough.
Thank you. Wondering what's on my next page even in the most hopeless of times has really helped.
If you care to share some of your non conventional wins I'd love to create space here to celebrate them with you!!
I never learned to knit or crochet, but I hand sew. I mend, I darn, I hem ... there is almost always a needle and thread in my hand.
Another great craft that is portable, useful, and beautiful. I am also a quilter, which I love but it a little more clunky and involved due to the machine. I've always thought embroidery would be really fun to try :)
You could always try ‘slow stitching’ there are a number of ways you can use a running stitch to ‘embroider’. I bought a plain linen scarf, chose 4 shades of embroidery thread and got a dice. I assigned each thread a number 1-4. A 5 was repeat the last colour, and 6 was roll again. It was an exercise in trusting randomness but I found it easy, soothing and amusing. I did about 50 rows of stitching at each end. It works best if you choose 3 colours that ‘go together’ and one that clashes a bit, and have some dark and some lighter.
I actually started hand sewing when I first got into quilting. I was flying for work a lot, so I started doing hand piecing on the go. Jinny Beyer has several books on it.
As I had kids I switched to hand sewing clothes for them while I commuted to work.
Nowadays, as I worry more about environmental issues, I do more mending and darning.
There's a bit of freehand embroidery in there, especially over stains 🙃
There's such interesting work that people do with visible mending for long-term clothing sustainability
It's always intriguing to me which ones we each do and do not end up learning. I crochet and I learned how to knit but honestly I learned for a job or I probably wouldn't have bothered. I know how to hand sew which I like better than machine sewing but mostly it stresses me out more than it soothes me. And for others it's the opposite. Whatever we do to craft and create and heal and mend ... materials and ourselves ... is good. <3 <3
I think the secret to hand sewing is knowing that the stitches will look even in an hour, even if they look wonky now!
But my 13yo daughter agrees, which is why she's learning to crochet from a classmate!
That's a good thing to remember! It might sound weird but actually a major turnoff for me is that you have to cut a certain length of thread ... even if you cut it long. With crochet, you can just keep working until the yarn runs out.
Creating a new length of thread is a ritual for me. I've gotten some nice smelling wax so I pull an arm length, cut, pull the armlength through the wax, thread, knot.
Oh that sounds lovely. I think it really enhances the crafting experiences when we notice the routine parts of it and add something, like nice smelling wax, that makes it more of a ritual of sorts.
Thank you Kathryn for sharing your story and Rae for bringing this piece of it to us. I related to so much of this. For me, knitting is all you find in crochet. When my pain was severe I also used it to “knit a net to hold the pain” and because what I called ordering tasks seemed to soothe me a tiny bit, maybe they did something to my brainwaves through patterns of movement? Knitting, sorting things - I once dumped out a small jar of mixed nuts ams sorted them when I was feeling desperate. It even helped, a bit. And for a while after I put together my own, superior nut mix rather than buy the deceiving ones from the supermarket.
I love this concept of ordering tasks! That's definitely part of the fulfillment of knitting/crocheting--ordering a messy ball of yarn into something useful and beautiful.
What a terrific phrase - knitting a net to hold the pain. I love that.
Knitting and crochet have most of the same benefits. I learned crochet as a kid so I had that muscle memory that made it easier to pick up again as an adult. I can knit but it's a much harder task for me so I don't find it quite as soothing.
The ordering thing makes sense. It's probably something neurochemical and also something metaphorical about how we need to bring order to the chaos of our worlds. I know that I often go into a decluttering and organizing phase with my physical world when my emotional world is a mess.
I learned knitting as a kid, and i cam crochet about well enough to join knitting together. I find a lot of people get on with one or the other more. People and brains are fascinating.
We really are!!
In answer to question 1) I don’t knit! But I love Muay Thai, going to the gym and writing on here to keep me going.
2) what keeps me curious about the next part of life on my worst days? trying to think of ONE thing I’m grateful for, or looking forward to. Even if it’s literally a coffee, or a walk in the sunshine. Or the smell of freshly cut grass and the evening setting in. I always try to think, ‘tomorrow will be better’ and 9 times out of 10 I feel a new man the next morning. I have to get through the storm first before I can properly be curious about what’s next, but once I deploy these coping mechanisms, a walk in nature can create the space I need to be excited about the writing, gymming, exploring, and learning journeys ahead.
Sounds like you have some fabulous tactics that really work for you! A walk in nature really is a magic pill.
What you've described is something we tend to do naturally - find the things that work to bring us out of that stormy space - but which is officially in therapy called resourcing. When I learned this in school, I brainstormed everything that ever makes me feel good, and it really has helped me to have that list to turn to. I learned through that list that petting dogs is a big resource for me - I didn't have any at the time and would go to the dog park and pet strangers dogs :)
There’s an Aussie pain expert called Lorimer Mosely who calls them SIMs - Safety In Me signals, where stressors are DIMs - Danger in me signals. I’ve also seem them called Lifters. Padding hard tasks with SIMs, resourcing, joy snacks, circuit breakers is helpful to me, and to any human.
Ooh that's an intriguing framework. I'll look into that more.
I feel really fortunate that when my boyf asked a neighbour who was a neurologist about my newfound migraine disability in 2018 he said “whatever contraceptive she’s on, get her to come off it. Even if it’s the mini pill.” I’ve never taken it since and will never take contraception again. I’m 43 and a big part of my journey has been to rebalance my hormones. It’s taken years. But I was ok with that, because to me it was as a simple as staying chronically ill for years or spending years pursuing a path to wellness. I recently found out the chances were I would’ve been perimenopausal with all my symptoms back at the age of 38. Symptoms outside of severe & agonising pain were the least of my problems at the point of finding myself being unable to work with no mortgage insurance, no sick pay and no immediate family to help. My periods and my hormonal health are the best they’ve ever been....celebrating 18 months free from severe & agonising pain. 4 months free from a high level of pain (comparable with child birth, kidney stones & gunshot wound. I’m well 90-95% of the time. I believe this is possible for all of us and can’t wait to be interviewed for this series. Application submitted. 🙏
Thank you for sharing Amber! Your story is both difficult to read and inspiring at the same time. So much intensity.
A million apologies for not getting back to you yet - I have been overwhelmed by the responses, so much so that I have taken down the interest link (for now!). I am slowly but surely working through the list (which will inevitably be further delayed by my upcoming maternity leave!) Thanks so much for your interest and continued support!
Thank you🥲 there’s never any rush with the applications, we have time and they will unravel and unfold in their own way. I sent your pregnancy announcement blog on to my friend (with her permission) as she’s currently going through ivf and the grief that she feels will stay with her forever. She found it deeply insightful and beneficial to read x
Thank you for sharing that. I had a really terrible experience recently with a doctor recently who flat out told me that at 43 this is not perimenopause because I'm "too young" which is scientifically untrue but also just so dismissive. I appreciate hearing about your journey and how there might be value in just going off the pill completely. I'm not sure that's what I want to do as I don't love my other contraceptive choices but I also don't want to keep feeling unwell so that's something to seriously consider. I wish more people were talking about this and I really appreciate Rae opening up the space to have these conversations.
I was told I was too young and it could go on for another decade. Stopped bleeding about a year later, thank goodness.
What's been complicated is that I stopped bleeding almost entirely in my early thirties due to the effects of the pill but a few years ago I did a bunch of hormone testing that said I can still get pregnant so I'm not actually in menopause ... but now I'm seeing all of these signs that I could be in perimenopause but that obvious one of not bleeding isn't relevant so doctors really don't know what to do with me.
That’s such a hard place to be. I’m glad you were able to consult doctors so they could at least rule out sinister things like cancer. Seems like before menopause they worry if you stop bleeding for no apparent reason, and after menopause they worry about even a tiny smear of blood.
It’s a big decision to make re the contraceptive. Give it some space and I’m sure you will come to a decision that feels in alignment for you. I’ve been fascinated about hormones since I started learning about them. And it is true that 43 would’ve been considered too young - not that long ago. I was horrified to discover just this year that perimenopause has reduced from mid to late 40’s to 36! This has happened only in the last dozen or so years. It is concerning on another level when it comes to matters of our health.
There are also people who go into early menopause much younger than that and I found it appalling that my female doctor at a women's center acted like I was crazy to even suggest it. I'm looking for a new doctor. But also, as you've suggested, giving it space and trusting myself and my body to decide is really what's going to be key here.
I think perhaps younger generations are getting more information about this because most of the friends a decade younger than me have chosen only non-hormonal birth control. It's not a conversation I was even having at the time. I went on the pill in my late teens and have more or less been on it ever since.
Same, re the contraception. Ive always had big issues with it but vehemently did not want to get pregnant. For me, tuning into my body (in the end), learning to trust has been key for me. My body always knew but I’d learnt to override it.
It will be a rarity to find a doctor who understands about hormones. It’s a deeply complex topic that they have little to no training on (unless they actively pursue it themselves). But at least if we can find someone who will listen, show a little empathy and have even a remote idea that would help. I went on to educate myself in the end -reading books, listening to podcasts. There’s some fantastic resources out there. And my health has improved far beyond what the medical field currently believe possible. I hope to change these beliefs and limitations with my writing and messaging.
I was surprised because my doctor is at a women’s clinic that also specializes in transgender health care so it seems like a place that should have knowledge about hormones!!! But I’m finding that just talking about it with other women and opening that conversation is how I am learning the most.
It is surprising when you first find out, shockingly so. Not a lot about the medical system surprises me now (though I remain grateful for the services that we do have via the nhs and recognise the strengths and opportunities that come along with it). I was horrified when I found out that doctors only receive 4 hours training in headache and migraine. Neurologists not much more. But it did help me make sense of the massive shortfalls and failings in my own journey and understand how the worlds most complex - and common - neurological disorder is now also the worlds 2nd most disabling. Something I fervently believe could be entirely avoidable. It is a time of opportunity for us all now though because these things we can research and find out about ourselves. Share the information, learn from one another. Glad to read this is what you are finding x
This was so beautiful to me...
Our culture tells us: go earn money and do things for society in order to be valuable. I don’t believe in that, but I do believe we all need a purpose. Turning a piece of yarn into something is a magical thing.
Lovely piece from you both! Glad to have discovered it after a tough week..: wondering if my toddler will let me knit a few rows... 🧶
I'm so glad it resonated Claire, and I am really hoping for you to get a few rows :)
Not yet but I have identified the spot I buried my knitting supplies!!
I’m excited for this morning. I can savour and read this piece with my tea. Clearly from the comments it’s going to be an elixir of sorts.
🧡🧡🧡
I really feel every word of this! While I can’t physically knit (I don’t have enough energy/strength in my hands), I do struggle with finding purpose a lot. I’m mostly bedbound so there isn’t a whole lot I can do, but I found out that it’s possible to write and record songs from bed and my reclinable wheelchair. I’ve nearly finished recording my first album (it has taken nearly eight years from writing to recording) and I’m elated. I do struggle with “but if I could do more I would have more purpose”, it’s a daily conversation I have with myself. Thank you so much, Kathryn, for sharing your story!
Thank you for sharing too! And congrats on being almost finished with your first album!!! That's very exciting. It's really hard to find purpose in ways that are disentangled from what society calls "success" but I hope we all keep encouraging each other to do so. Even your words here matter. <3
Exactly, I’ve had to redefine what ‘success’ means to me too many times. And thank you for your kind words!
I've been off hormonal birth control for 3 years now (I have a copper IUD instead) and it has absolutely changed my life. My cycle is much more varied but I've learned so much about myself in letting myself cycle naturally. I know this isn't an option for everyone but I would recommend if you can.
I love this, I remember being told by my psychiatrist that it was reasonable to expect that with my mental health diagnosis full time employment may never be a realistic option for me. And it's not. I don't think it works for many people. It is hard to care for yourself meaningfully, especially if your putting all your energy into working. Letting go of the narrative of what we are told is normal and meeting ourselves where we are is so important.
I knit. I find it helps me feel 'productive' when everything else feels too hard. I like to knit beanies and then give them away. knowing I'm doing it for someone else helps to, it helps to remind me that I am not alone, and that I am not the only person that needs love and tenderness.
Thanks for writing, Evelyn! Seems like there might be a need for more spaces to talk about hormonal birth control and all of our whack experiences with it.
It's cool that you had a psychiatrist that just told it to you straight like that (though I know that there are points in my life where I wouldn't have been able to hear that message).
Knitting is the best. I also knit. Hats are my favorite because you can easily be creative and they come together quickly :)
Yeah, its wild how much we just don't get told. I was on a pill with an unnecessarily high amount of estrogen for 7 years that increased my risk of cancer for no reason. It took seeing a female GP that specialised in womens health to catch that. It's wild.
Yes crafts are amazing and a great way for my friends and I to connect as we like to do it together too.
UGH that pill story makes my blood boil. I'm really sorry that happened, and I'm glad you ultimately found a better GP.
I felt so seen in this interview, especially in the commentary about having depression and not being able to work those desired 40 hr work weeks and feeling grief over it.
<3. Kathryn really articulated something on a lot of people's minds! So much gratitude for that.
"I can't go to a job nine to five every day and be an okay person. It took me years to not feel ashamed about that. I thought I was lazy. I thought something was wrong with me. I pushed and pushed and pushed."
I 100% relate to this. I came very close to a breakdown in 2021 because I was trying to push, trying to be “normal”.
I do still find myself pushing because I have so much guilt around not working more in a regular job. I don’t have much money coming in and me and my partner have to live with my Mum. I feel guilty a lot. But I try to focus on writing and creating so maybe one day my dreams of it being my job will come true. And then I’ll be free.
I have totally been there too, just pushing pushing pushing. The guilt and shame is real, and I love how open and honest Kathryn is about it, in this interview and in all her writing!
I had meant to comment much earlier, but Covid sideswiped me last week, and it took a bit for my brain to reconstitute itself. Anyway...
I was on "the pill" for 20 years or so in order to regulate my menstrual cycle, which went haywire in my teens. The big concern was that I wouldn't be able to settle into a regular rhythm on my own and I risked bleeding to death! We suspect this is what happened to one of my great aunts, in fact.
I jumped off the pill in 2007, following my trip to Australia. It was an experiment at the time: if things started going off kilter, I could jump back on the pill. Lo and behold, I stayed in a regular pattern for ten years, until perimenopause kicked in! Hormonal flux at this point is totally expected, though, so I've been riding it out.
My current challenge is dealing with the "triple threat" of perimenopause, chronic anemia, and Long Covid. (Once I took a long look at anemia, the symptoms slotted into place alongside everything else.) I'm very much looking forward to meeting with some functional medicine specialists to see if I can get some workable *holistic* solutions, instead of just trying to cobble together a patchwork of remedies and coping mechanisms.
Hah, I guess I had a lot to say about this. 😉
Whew, thanks for writing, that's a lot. It sounds like you have some clarity about what's going on right now, which is great, but doesn't really indicate a clear path forward. I am also hoping for you that you can find a holistic approach that feels good!
Randomly--I just had an iron infusion due to anemia during pregnancy (which I think is quite common, particularly with children after the first). I didn't know this was a thing, and it has been a godsend because I have been able to stop taking constipating iron supplements. I feel more stable and energetic since the infusion. Not suggesting that this is the right path for you, I just wanted to share my recent experience!