"Be 50 percent less bubbly" that makes me sick but does not surprise me. As a solopreneur I have been told far too many times, mostly by men, that my laughter and smiles make me seem less professional. F- that, this is me and if people want to work with me they'll have talk to me, lol. I also started my business in my late 40's. In my early 20's I tried on many other ways of acting. None of them worked. I would also come through them. Thank goddess for that! Great post as usual.
omg I'm gonna puke, "stop laughing, stop smiling," can these people hear themselves? I met an ex-McKinsey person once who went into journalism, and she said "they told me to talk forty percent less so I went into an industry that pays me by the word" 😂😂😂
Hmm this is interesting. I’ve been told (mostly by men) to smile more and relax because my resting b*tch face is scary. Been told (also by men) to be more outgoing and dress more professional.
Seems as though men just like to tell women what to do and put us down so they can feel superior.
yea but if I'm totally honest, for me it wasn't just men. Some of the worst "you shoulds" I've had in my life were from women. My favorite being, "if you can't sleep when someone is snoring, how will you ever get married." um, what?
I feel you. The worst I got from a woman was, “If you don’t want to get married and have children, what are you living for then?” My life is still worth living without those “normal” societal milestone.
ugh, as someone who never planned to have kids AND is estranged from my own parents, I feel you. People get really scared that our choices are going to infect them. ridiculous! we all get to decide.
When I got my first management job, I remember that my dad told me that the best advice he could offer me was to never say "sorry". Over the years since,I have found that to be terrible advice. When you truly owe someone an apology, and you hold power in the relationship, to have the maturity and self-awareness to offer a genuine apology does more to foster loyalty than almost anything else you can do. I try not to let my apologies be cheap though; I don't apologize for everything. Hurt feelings on their own are not a good enough reason - the yardstick is harm. Big harm, big apology; small harm, small apology. No harm, no apology, even if the other person has feelings. I can listen to and acknowledge the feelings and empathize, and sometimes that's more meaningful than the apology anyway.
You sound like an incredibly wise manager. So true that not only is apologizing appropriately a kind/human thing to do, it can also be a very savvy management technique as a bonus.
Thank you for that "moral distress" link. I've always used "cognitive dissonance" for that feeling, but moral distress is so much better. It's the earliest feeling I can recall, back when I was almost still a toddler, when some kid got punished in my view unfairly and the adults wouldn't listen. Now, of course, I get it every time I read the news.
Wow, moral distress is the earliest feeling you can remember! That's fascinating. The term is most often used in the context of doctors and nurses, particularly during COVID, but also is part of the conversation about burnout in general.
It's probably not technically right, as I had no agency. Maybe outrage is closer? But the feeling matched what I felt in an episode from my corporate life. Our company building was under threat of closure and layoffs after a buyout. I was told to hire people with the promise they wouldn't be laid off. Six months later I was told to lay them off. I helped them all get jobs, then quit that company and corporate life for good.
I am familiar with this dilemma, too! I appreciate your definition of moral distress. When your conscience is rightly-ordered (that is, you're not being overly-scrupulous or self-hating or whatever), feeling constrained from doing what is right, including apologizing, can be devastating to your health, confidence, happiness, and sense of personal character.
I think many women probably do apologize too often, but as you say, apologizing when it is appropriate really is a mark of strength. Having the humility and self-knowledge to apologize (appropriately) is what keep us in a state of interior peace, and developing this as a discipline/habit can actually strengthen our ability to stand up for what is right. When I know that I am not beyond recognizing when I have done wrong, then I can trust my conscience when I am doing something that I believe is right *even when other people disagree or even attack me for it.*
In other words, humility is a precondition for fortitude. If you know yourself to be morally honest, then you will have the internal and social moral capital to take strong stances when needed.
'Discipline', absolutely. Yes, there will be a fallout somewhere, somehow if we continously subvert our selves because the culture deem it(our selves) as weakness. And that goes for showing any other appropriate human emotions too. Being responsive should not be a burden.
Excellent view as always and got me thinking back to my days being told by managers "don't say sorry for this". Often I took it as a fear of the client using it to extract something. A kind of hyper overactive vigilance - "even if we are wrong, we aren't ever wrong."
One thought that struck me reading the article and comments is the important difference between "giving an apology and saying 'sorry'". I have often mentored people "Don't just say sorry. Explain, apologize and discuss what to do next.". Just saying I'm sorry without an actual apology is meaningless and often annoying.
I will often catch myself jumping to say "I'm sorry" yet not really addressing the issue. When I catch myself I will often try and find a way to walk through the topic/issue and then apologize with a "sorry" only at the end.
And of course there are many social or other situations where saying sorry may just be a habit or turn of phase which can be ignored / personal preference.
This is a very important point and, as you say, has come up a number of times here. This is why I love writing on Substack, the readers enrich the discussion!
"even if we are wrong, we aren't ever wrong." - this is the part that really irked me from my former business life.
I'm not sure why apologizing is seen as a weakness. There's an an idea in authoritarian parenting as well where you never apologize to your children, because you're supposed to be in charge at all times. You're supposed to command their respect, in part by never admitting to fault. But healthy attachments rely on making reparation attempts when damage has happened to the relationship, and the best way to make reparations is to apologize. Being able to say, "I really lost it, didn't I? I'm sorry for yelling," is honestly only going to make your kid respect you more, not less.
In the corporate world, I can imagine saying sorry for every little thing might make you seem soft, but saying sorry on occasion shows you aren't just an uncaring prick.
"healthy attachments rely on making reparation attempts when damage has happened to the relationship" -- yes! And this applies in parenting, friendships, work relationships, all relationships!
Exactly. :) I like taking techniques and applying them broadly. "Non-Violent Communication" has great parenting advice, even though it's not a parenting book. And parenting books have great advice about interpersonal relationships in general, not just with children.
SIGH. This actually happened after my final round of interviews at McKinsey. They called and said, "hey, we couldn't decide. We liked you a lot but there were some reservations. We want you to come in for an extra round of interviews, and try being fifty percent less bubbly." So then I literally went back and tried to implement that crazy advice in the final interview. And I guess I succeeded because I got the job. But was that really succeeding? Sigh. I was young.
Oh. My. Fucking. God. This sounds like a parody of corporate culture. “Please modify your actual personality to fit in here please.” No wonder my 30 year old kids won’t work in an office !
I’ve spent my career in the public sector. It’s like opposite land over here. I hear 25 apologies a day and often counsel women not to apologize for “nothing”. I apologize for real mistakes that effect people but I don’t do the girl apologies (which I call apologies for existing) anymore
Totally makes sense! It's interesting how the different cultures produce such different norms, and each can have its issues. Seems like somewhere in the middle is the place to land!
I figured out the subtle difference between “I apologize” and “I’m sorry,” which has made a difference to my communication strategy. “I apologize” for all the situations where appropriate, as this post illustrates. “I’m sorry” for when I actually feel remorse.
I can apologize for moving the meeting several times, but as the boss, I don’t have to feel sorry for it. It’s a small difference but allows me to acknowledge my impact on their lives without contrition.
Ah, super interesting! I haven't explored that difference, and that makes total sense to me to differentiate between the two. I might try to implement this and see how it feels!
I say sorry very often. I think it's a great social lubricant. If someone visits us and the weather is bad, I'll say "Sorry about the weather." If I hit a bad shot in tennis, I'll say sorry to my doubles partner, knowing she'll reply "No worries." If i hit a wonky tennis shot that goes in, I'll say sorry to my opponents.
McKinsey! There's inherent insecurity about the amorphous nature and questionable value of what many consultants provide.
This is my honest curiosity and not at all an accusation (it's hard to communicate the friendliness via text so I just want to be explicit): Do you think that you have more leeway to say sorry while still maintaining a sense of authority and self-worth because you present as a man? I'm just thinking about myself out in the world in my twenties, and I always looked like I was sixteen, and I'm don't think I could apologize about the weather and be taken seriously. Although I guess it depends on the context--with friends I can apologize to my heart's content and they take me seriously because they actually know me.
I'm 62 now and I was commenting on how I am now. But for as long as I can remember, "sorry" always came as a reflex response. And since I was always shy, I think it was less about authority and more about not wanting to make any waves or have people upset with me.
When I first started work full time at a smallish investment bank in 1983, for the first 18 months I was the only person who knew how to use Lotus (the precursor to Excel) so that gave me some work self-esteem.
I would have been totally lost at McKinsey and would have assumed that everyone was more confident than I was at anything having to do with people interactions.
All that said, there remains a general gender divide that cuts against equal treatment and stigmatizes people on the basis of gender. Articles like yours that call out these practices are really important.
Seems like a tricky subject. If someone has invested time to know me, then apology might work when they cross the line. Something sincere and coming from experience seems right. The massive shift to call centers, robots, and service agents always apologizing has numbed me. I don't want an apology; instead, I want you to answer my question or turn my power back on or just STOP the incorrect behavior, over and over. Most of all, I want you to listen to my question and do not send me another website link. If the answer was on your website, I would not need to hunt down a phone number to find someone in your company who can correct the problem.
Apology that is about taking responsibility for your contributions to a situation where things don’t go right is mature adult behavior. Apology that says “please forgive me” actually places a burden on those hearing the apology. I wish we had two different concepts for these two types of apology.
Interesting distinction! I hadn't thought about it that way, and it makes a lot of sense to me. So much is embedded in the context, it's amazing how that subtle difference makes "sorry" mean completely different things.
yes 100%!!! I find that often those who resist apologizing the most are those who could do it a lot more often (and inversely those who over-apologize could use a break from 'sorry'!).
It's hard to hit the exact right place! But I think I've started using my intuition more to guide me rather than what I "should" do (in apologizing and in all parts of life!). "What feels right?" vs "what do people say I should do?"
That's the way, for sure! I hate the word "should" so much and fight against it as often as I can. And yet, when push comes to shove, I'm apologizing for dropping a butter knife on the kitchen floor when no one's home.
"Be 50 percent less bubbly" that makes me sick but does not surprise me. As a solopreneur I have been told far too many times, mostly by men, that my laughter and smiles make me seem less professional. F- that, this is me and if people want to work with me they'll have talk to me, lol. I also started my business in my late 40's. In my early 20's I tried on many other ways of acting. None of them worked. I would also come through them. Thank goddess for that! Great post as usual.
omg I'm gonna puke, "stop laughing, stop smiling," can these people hear themselves? I met an ex-McKinsey person once who went into journalism, and she said "they told me to talk forty percent less so I went into an industry that pays me by the word" 😂😂😂
YES! And I went into an industry that has NO gatekeepers (cause RSS rules!)
Hmm this is interesting. I’ve been told (mostly by men) to smile more and relax because my resting b*tch face is scary. Been told (also by men) to be more outgoing and dress more professional.
Seems as though men just like to tell women what to do and put us down so they can feel superior.
yea but if I'm totally honest, for me it wasn't just men. Some of the worst "you shoulds" I've had in my life were from women. My favorite being, "if you can't sleep when someone is snoring, how will you ever get married." um, what?
I feel you. The worst I got from a woman was, “If you don’t want to get married and have children, what are you living for then?” My life is still worth living without those “normal” societal milestone.
ugh, as someone who never planned to have kids AND is estranged from my own parents, I feel you. People get really scared that our choices are going to infect them. ridiculous! we all get to decide.
That’s exactly it. They are scared and perhaps a bit selfish too. I’m so sorry you’re estranged from your parents. ❤️
thanks. me too.
When I got my first management job, I remember that my dad told me that the best advice he could offer me was to never say "sorry". Over the years since,I have found that to be terrible advice. When you truly owe someone an apology, and you hold power in the relationship, to have the maturity and self-awareness to offer a genuine apology does more to foster loyalty than almost anything else you can do. I try not to let my apologies be cheap though; I don't apologize for everything. Hurt feelings on their own are not a good enough reason - the yardstick is harm. Big harm, big apology; small harm, small apology. No harm, no apology, even if the other person has feelings. I can listen to and acknowledge the feelings and empathize, and sometimes that's more meaningful than the apology anyway.
You sound like an incredibly wise manager. So true that not only is apologizing appropriately a kind/human thing to do, it can also be a very savvy management technique as a bonus.
Thank you for that "moral distress" link. I've always used "cognitive dissonance" for that feeling, but moral distress is so much better. It's the earliest feeling I can recall, back when I was almost still a toddler, when some kid got punished in my view unfairly and the adults wouldn't listen. Now, of course, I get it every time I read the news.
I apologize all the time, I'm a Brit. Sorry!
Wow, moral distress is the earliest feeling you can remember! That's fascinating. The term is most often used in the context of doctors and nurses, particularly during COVID, but also is part of the conversation about burnout in general.
It's probably not technically right, as I had no agency. Maybe outrage is closer? But the feeling matched what I felt in an episode from my corporate life. Our company building was under threat of closure and layoffs after a buyout. I was told to hire people with the promise they wouldn't be laid off. Six months later I was told to lay them off. I helped them all get jobs, then quit that company and corporate life for good.
I am familiar with this dilemma, too! I appreciate your definition of moral distress. When your conscience is rightly-ordered (that is, you're not being overly-scrupulous or self-hating or whatever), feeling constrained from doing what is right, including apologizing, can be devastating to your health, confidence, happiness, and sense of personal character.
I think many women probably do apologize too often, but as you say, apologizing when it is appropriate really is a mark of strength. Having the humility and self-knowledge to apologize (appropriately) is what keep us in a state of interior peace, and developing this as a discipline/habit can actually strengthen our ability to stand up for what is right. When I know that I am not beyond recognizing when I have done wrong, then I can trust my conscience when I am doing something that I believe is right *even when other people disagree or even attack me for it.*
In other words, humility is a precondition for fortitude. If you know yourself to be morally honest, then you will have the internal and social moral capital to take strong stances when needed.
So, anyways: I loved this post!
"humility is a precondition for fortitude" mmmmm yesss, I love this statement!
'Discipline', absolutely. Yes, there will be a fallout somewhere, somehow if we continously subvert our selves because the culture deem it(our selves) as weakness. And that goes for showing any other appropriate human emotions too. Being responsive should not be a burden.
Excellent view as always and got me thinking back to my days being told by managers "don't say sorry for this". Often I took it as a fear of the client using it to extract something. A kind of hyper overactive vigilance - "even if we are wrong, we aren't ever wrong."
One thought that struck me reading the article and comments is the important difference between "giving an apology and saying 'sorry'". I have often mentored people "Don't just say sorry. Explain, apologize and discuss what to do next.". Just saying I'm sorry without an actual apology is meaningless and often annoying.
I will often catch myself jumping to say "I'm sorry" yet not really addressing the issue. When I catch myself I will often try and find a way to walk through the topic/issue and then apologize with a "sorry" only at the end.
And of course there are many social or other situations where saying sorry may just be a habit or turn of phase which can be ignored / personal preference.
This is a very important point and, as you say, has come up a number of times here. This is why I love writing on Substack, the readers enrich the discussion!
"even if we are wrong, we aren't ever wrong." - this is the part that really irked me from my former business life.
I'm not sure why apologizing is seen as a weakness. There's an an idea in authoritarian parenting as well where you never apologize to your children, because you're supposed to be in charge at all times. You're supposed to command their respect, in part by never admitting to fault. But healthy attachments rely on making reparation attempts when damage has happened to the relationship, and the best way to make reparations is to apologize. Being able to say, "I really lost it, didn't I? I'm sorry for yelling," is honestly only going to make your kid respect you more, not less.
In the corporate world, I can imagine saying sorry for every little thing might make you seem soft, but saying sorry on occasion shows you aren't just an uncaring prick.
"healthy attachments rely on making reparation attempts when damage has happened to the relationship" -- yes! And this applies in parenting, friendships, work relationships, all relationships!
Exactly. :) I like taking techniques and applying them broadly. "Non-Violent Communication" has great parenting advice, even though it's not a parenting book. And parenting books have great advice about interpersonal relationships in general, not just with children.
I laughed at the be fifty percent less bubbly advice. Pretty sure I had the same advice given to me when I was a young whipper snapper up and comer. 😂
SIGH. This actually happened after my final round of interviews at McKinsey. They called and said, "hey, we couldn't decide. We liked you a lot but there were some reservations. We want you to come in for an extra round of interviews, and try being fifty percent less bubbly." So then I literally went back and tried to implement that crazy advice in the final interview. And I guess I succeeded because I got the job. But was that really succeeding? Sigh. I was young.
Oh. My. Fucking. God. This sounds like a parody of corporate culture. “Please modify your actual personality to fit in here please.” No wonder my 30 year old kids won’t work in an office !
And I’m Canadian, so saying sorry is in our DNA.
Moral Injury is now clearly understood to be a basis for PTSD.
I didn't know this, but it makes sense. Is there any research or other materials on this that you'd recommend? I'd be interested in checking it out!
a starter: https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/treat/cooccurring/moral_injury.asp
My understanding of my husbands complex ptsd was enormously improved when I learned ( by accident) about moral injury.
It’s not limited to the military .
It was the work of this woman (I’m Australian) that led me to the concept
https://www.une.edu.au/connect/news/2020/09/the-cost-of-crossing-the-line
I’m Canadian. It’s natural for us to apologize. All the freakin’ time!
One reason I'm biased in favor of Canadians!
I’ve spent my career in the public sector. It’s like opposite land over here. I hear 25 apologies a day and often counsel women not to apologize for “nothing”. I apologize for real mistakes that effect people but I don’t do the girl apologies (which I call apologies for existing) anymore
Totally makes sense! It's interesting how the different cultures produce such different norms, and each can have its issues. Seems like somewhere in the middle is the place to land!
The number of times I’ve essentially said “I’m sorry I also have a body that is sharing this space with your body…” 😭
Apologies for existing, love that expression!
I figured out the subtle difference between “I apologize” and “I’m sorry,” which has made a difference to my communication strategy. “I apologize” for all the situations where appropriate, as this post illustrates. “I’m sorry” for when I actually feel remorse.
I can apologize for moving the meeting several times, but as the boss, I don’t have to feel sorry for it. It’s a small difference but allows me to acknowledge my impact on their lives without contrition.
Ah, super interesting! I haven't explored that difference, and that makes total sense to me to differentiate between the two. I might try to implement this and see how it feels!
I say sorry very often. I think it's a great social lubricant. If someone visits us and the weather is bad, I'll say "Sorry about the weather." If I hit a bad shot in tennis, I'll say sorry to my doubles partner, knowing she'll reply "No worries." If i hit a wonky tennis shot that goes in, I'll say sorry to my opponents.
McKinsey! There's inherent insecurity about the amorphous nature and questionable value of what many consultants provide.
This is my honest curiosity and not at all an accusation (it's hard to communicate the friendliness via text so I just want to be explicit): Do you think that you have more leeway to say sorry while still maintaining a sense of authority and self-worth because you present as a man? I'm just thinking about myself out in the world in my twenties, and I always looked like I was sixteen, and I'm don't think I could apologize about the weather and be taken seriously. Although I guess it depends on the context--with friends I can apologize to my heart's content and they take me seriously because they actually know me.
I'm 62 now and I was commenting on how I am now. But for as long as I can remember, "sorry" always came as a reflex response. And since I was always shy, I think it was less about authority and more about not wanting to make any waves or have people upset with me.
When I first started work full time at a smallish investment bank in 1983, for the first 18 months I was the only person who knew how to use Lotus (the precursor to Excel) so that gave me some work self-esteem.
I would have been totally lost at McKinsey and would have assumed that everyone was more confident than I was at anything having to do with people interactions.
All that said, there remains a general gender divide that cuts against equal treatment and stigmatizes people on the basis of gender. Articles like yours that call out these practices are really important.
Seems like a tricky subject. If someone has invested time to know me, then apology might work when they cross the line. Something sincere and coming from experience seems right. The massive shift to call centers, robots, and service agents always apologizing has numbed me. I don't want an apology; instead, I want you to answer my question or turn my power back on or just STOP the incorrect behavior, over and over. Most of all, I want you to listen to my question and do not send me another website link. If the answer was on your website, I would not need to hunt down a phone number to find someone in your company who can correct the problem.
That makes sense - empty apologies are the worst!!
Apology that is about taking responsibility for your contributions to a situation where things don’t go right is mature adult behavior. Apology that says “please forgive me” actually places a burden on those hearing the apology. I wish we had two different concepts for these two types of apology.
Interesting distinction! I hadn't thought about it that way, and it makes a lot of sense to me. So much is embedded in the context, it's amazing how that subtle difference makes "sorry" mean completely different things.
yes 100%!!! I find that often those who resist apologizing the most are those who could do it a lot more often (and inversely those who over-apologize could use a break from 'sorry'!).
yuuuuuuup
Serial apologist here wishing I could strike a balance as well.
It's hard to hit the exact right place! But I think I've started using my intuition more to guide me rather than what I "should" do (in apologizing and in all parts of life!). "What feels right?" vs "what do people say I should do?"
That's the way, for sure! I hate the word "should" so much and fight against it as often as I can. And yet, when push comes to shove, I'm apologizing for dropping a butter knife on the kitchen floor when no one's home.